I mentioned the main pagan winter/ solstice holiday (associated with Christmas) in the reply. So, I’m not saying I don’t know about it.
What I’m saying is: I used to think that it was a “scam” to convert the pagans or whatever, due to the arguments you’ve presented. But this year, I dropped the DaVinci doce and Zeitguiest, and actually did a scholar investigation, and it has lead me to the conclusion that Christmas is not pagan at all.
I’m saying also saying that, pagans before Christ drank water. Built houses. Had children. Gave gifts, eat fish...
I know there are “rumour” of the birth of Christ being in September. There is no evidence at all for this. It's a made up idea, to legitimise the “it’s pagan” narrative. (Just like the “all the idols that where born on December 25th”) There is no evidence at all, hence to say it’s probable, it’s beyond a stretch.
The only thing that “paganizers” hold on to, is: The date is not specified in the Bible, it does not mention any September. And that goats where outside. wish I was making this up, because it would be more intelctauly stimulating, but that is the ONE argument in favor, of the birthday being another one. There where goats outside. And some people, even say “WE KNOW Jesus was not born on December” , you can’t make this up.
Where I live, its usually warm in December and I literally saw goats walking around last week. And it’s colder than Palestine. On the other hand, there is actually evidence that Jesus was born on December 25th.
Did you know that in other languages, Santa is not called Santa at all? Not even close? So the anagram goes out the window, wouldn’t you agree? But here are a few other anagrams (in English, a very modern language, none the less) :
God and dog (wow, case closed! Hindus got it wrong and it’s dogs they should worship)
Live for Evil
Lived for devil (Bam! case closed! who has ever lived is a devil. Like any dog who has lived… hun hun...)
Did you know that in Portuguese, Spanish and Italian, for example (AKA Latin) Santa means Saint? Not an anagram, it literally means Saint.
The PARTS of Christmas…. is a bit the point, I made earlier. If you take any tradition and just nitpick what you want and then look at every other single tradition out there, only looking for that tiny thing you want. And then you can just imply things and not provide any actual source or fact… well, in those conditions, anything can be anything. Like that I could make a case for: any dog who has ever lived, is the devil.
Hate to bring it again, but it’s the writing is form babylon,, and bam! Pagans used to have meals with their families and Bam! Pagans gave gifts before Jesus was born and bam!
Anything goes really. But this is not academic, scientific nor historic. That’s why in a trial you need to prove things, with evidence and sources and logic.
The History channel is not a source. It’s just a medium. Like, if I go to to a book store, I’m sure all the books in there, will be talking about the "pagan myth” or the “Idols born on the 25th” , but then you must look at their sources. The 25th thing, for example, is a blatant lie. And as such, the sources, don’t have sources. I’m using that example, because it’s connected in a away and it’s super, super easy to see, it’s 100% a lie.
For example the burning of the wood in Yule, the earliest reference we have from it, it's from 1648 AD. That’s 350 years ago and 1650 years after Christ. That’s the earliest reference we have from it, yet every single best seller and history channel only mentions it, as a fact that it’s such an ancient practise. WITHOUT, mentioning the earliest source is form the 1600’s. Even Yule itself, we don’t have a date for when it started. But I’ll just accept that it’s from the BC's.
Egypt has a long and cold winter? I mean, one really needs to lose all sense of seriousness, to keep the pagan argument up.
Again, is it Roman paganism? Is it Egyptian paganism? Is it Scandinavian? What is it? Is it a sun god? Is it the celebration of the solstice? Is it Saturn? What is it?
According to the narrative, it had to be Roman. Because it was within the Roman empire that the big “scam” to get the pagans on board happened. Roma had no, solecistic celebration, again atet was mainly in northern areas where they had cold, long and dark winters.
Saturnalia was about saturn, it could not be more different than Christmas and it did not take place on the 25th.
You say, that is it possible for Christians to “appropriate” pagan holidays. And that’s fair enough.
Let me ask you this: Is it possible that non Christians appropriate Christian holidays?… Or is it just one sided? Because it does seem one sided in our culture.
In fact there is a particular “group” who loves to appropriate and invert all Christian traditions. Even last week this group put a horrible statue, next to a nativity scene in Ohio state building (or some place like that)
In Rome, after Christianity had been legalised, an emperor tried to bring the empire back into paganism. And created “sol invictus” and made it so that it would be on Christmas so that it would replace it. We have a Norwegian King, who changed the yule celebration to the 25th, so it would be on Christmas. (that’s one of the earliest mentions of Yule as well)
For the other way, around, I’m still waiting to see a serious source. (Also, we even have "Hyppolytus of Rome” who describes Christmas being on the 25th of December around 200 AD. That’s more than a century before the so called scam happened.)
Halloween, is basically an American AKA recent, invention. One can say that it comes from the Celts… but that’s a all other topic and this is along comment already. Ins short, Halloween is an American holiday, and that group I mentioned earlier also likes it quite a bit. Per the Christinas date, it is All Saints day. From 1700 years ago.
I’m assuming, easter comes from “isthar”? Again, anglo centric view, in other languages easter is not said like that at all. And Easter is the death and resurrection of Jesus. I mean, on this one, there is no debate. There is so, so much historic evidence for the precise date of his cruficition…
So the better question: No, Christmas is not connected with the solecistic in any form. Romans, could not care less about the solstice, the Hebrews could not care less about the solstice. You can dig all you want and you will not find any connection between it. A real one. Not recent (last couple centuries) assumptions and DaVinci code type things. Yeah, history channel will promote it.
It’s an assumption that has been fed to us, left and right, so people start repeating it. Not going to the old historians and so on…
And is connected to two major and somewhat recent assumptions, that there was a general paganization of Christianity. Again, not gonna get into it, but It’s a joke.
And the birthdate, being incorrect. That like I said in the beginning, there is ONE very weak argument, that a 5 year old can crack down and zero proof or anything. It’s a truly empty accusation.
In no trial in the world, would the “ paganization", be accepted. And the "real Christian" would win, no problem. Zero for one. Quite a bit for the other.
Well, this ended up being a long one. I want to thank you, since while writing this, I realised, I’m going to take this comment, those other 4 articles and I’m going to do a very serious, academic paper on it.
But yeah, I’m not saying “I don’t know that there was pagan winter holidays which predates the birth of Christ?” As you can see. This is quite a common posture of people who defend this view. They assume that the person is ignorant…
Have a good one.
RE: Is Christmas a pagan celebration? (Part 2)