@msgivings ,
My response to your post is long so I thought I would make a post and just link it. I have a lot of questions and think it would show great character on your part if you checked out my response and made one back so your followers and myself can fully understand your position on this subject better.
I'm going to be going thru your post and posting quotes with my questions or points and then at the end I will add my main questions and thoughts. so thank you for reading my response and cant wait to hear back from you @msgivings.
Monogamy is a lie! by msgivings in relationships
There are all these rules that we were born into and somehow, the forces have been binding on us whether we accept it or not, whether it aligns with our true nature or not. One of these rules is the one binding on men and women in sexual relationships. This rule is known as monogamy. -{@msgivings}-
How is monogamy a rule everyone is born into? There are many places around the world that don't practice monogamy. How is monogamy a force and how is it binding us? Monogamy is not a rule, It is a choice that people make.
It states that a male and female human being must be dedicated to one sexual partner during the period of the relationship.-{@msgivings}-
What or who states that as a rule? Do you not see how many single parents there are? There is no rule anywhere that says a person "must be dedicated to one sexual partner during the period of the relationship". You are projecting your own feelings about the issue onto everyone else. People choose to be dedicated or choose not to. They choose to stay with someone that isn't dedicated or they choose not to. It has nothing to do with "rules".
As much as this rule seem like a noble idea, I think it is unfair and infringing on the rights of human beings who are inherently free moral agents.-{@msgivings}-
Again, not a rule. How is it an upper-class (noble) idea? How is it infringing on any ones human rights if others choose or choose not to follow with monogamy? As for using the term "Free moral agency" it is simply a theological expression, man-manufactured for his own convenience, and like most human inventions, is not the truth at all.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/FreeMoralAgent-Eby.html
Why should any one person or group of persons, sit at a corner of their desk and mull over such an idea and then impose it on others as the perfect rule of engagement for sexual partners?-{@msgivings}-
This is a 2 part question. People should expand upon and discuss such an idea because if people don't we will never come to understanding on the subject. No one is imposing the "rule" of engagement for sexual partners, they might suggest stuff out of experience (like knowing what happens when kids grow up in a family without both parents) but no one is imposing anything. At least not in 1st world nations. They are choices people are making.
I find it ridiculous.-{@msgivings}-
Are you saying it is ridiculous for someone to have the choice to look for a monogamist relationship?
Researches show some ethnographic evidence that suggest that human nature is adapted to an ancestral mating system that was predominately polygamous (one husband, multiple wives).-{@msgivings}-
Who are the researchers you speak of? Plus that was in a time when it was perceived as ok for men to take women as sex slaves, buy children brides and the idea that women must submit to the will of men. Times have changes and both men and women have the right to choose if they want to be monogamist. You might be able to even say human nature has adapted beyond our ancestral mating system of predominately polygamy. returning to a system we have progressed out of would be regressive.
Women were even more comfortable being the co-wife of a strong man than be the sole wife of a second rated man.-{@msgivings}-
More projection? You might be more comfortable as a second wife or with your husband meeting up with hookers every weekend but most women in a first world society do not like the idea of sharing their husband.
When you say "second rate" husband I have to think you are talking about K and R selection. The problem with your idea of polygamy is that K personality males no longer seek a bunch of R personality women. K personality males now want K personality females, they then enter monogamy. Where the R personality people just do what R selected people do and breed. So for a bunch of R selected women wanting to be the wifes of a K selected man, they will be pushed to the side anytime a K personality women comes along. K personality women will not share their husband. R personality males are the ones that seek a bunch of R personality wifes. Maybe you mean second rate by money? If so then I got no comment on that one (cough gold digger).
This explains to a satisfactory level that man- male and female- were not born with the innate desire to be monogamous.-{@msgivings}-
I will agree that children are not born monogamous but the children that grow up in a monogamous family with two K selected parents will become a K selected adult and want the same monogamy because they know it works. Children that are raised in an R selected family with parents that aren't faithful or just a single parent look at the happy K selected families and wants that but because they are R selected they will never have the ability to achieve monogamy because all they know is R selected behavior.
These findings also reveal that monogamy is an imported idea that gained significance through modern religion, civilization and evolution. It was not so from the beginning of time.-{@msgivings}-
What findings reveal monogamy was an imported idea? We see it in nature. One male and one female is needed to create a baby. How much more natural is needed? I am not saying there was a time where it was only monogamy or polygamy. I have to believe both ideas have been around scene the beginning of the human race because of evolution. To say it is an imported idea from religion or civilization is also to imply that the idea was already around in religion and civilization in order to be inported from. Religion and civilization had already incorporated them from evolution/nature or just plain submission of the masses.
In fact, social monogamy in humans dates back to just about 1000 years ago which makes it a relatively new idea compared to the number of years anthropologists say humans have been in existence on planet earth.-{@msgivings}-
Just wow. So, in the six large, highly stratified early states, commoners were generally monogamous but that elites practiced de facto polygyny. Those states included Mesopotamia, Egypt, Aztec Mexico, Inca Peru, India and China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogamy
This means that, not everyone human has evolved into the reality of monogamy as a social norm. Why then should it be forced down our throats?-{@msgivings}-
Humans evolved onto the reality of monogamy as a social norm? Social norm where? Monogamy is in nature and was the social norm before first world civilization. If anything we evolved out of polygamy and into monogamy. In a lot of third world civilizations polygamy is still the social norm. It should not be (an isn't) forced down your throat, you have a choice to do it or not. If you don't want to be in a monogamist relationship then don't. You don't live in a time or place where your dad is going to sell you off.
Personally, I believe that monogamy is one big lie and at best, an attempt by man to try to control nature.-{@msgivings}-
How is it a lie? It is not a truth or a lie, It is a choice people decide to make. Earlier you say " monogamy is an imported idea that gained significance through evolution" so is it evolution controlling man into monogamy or is it man trying to control nature with monogamy?
I would not have any argument with this societal arrangement, if only people, those who cannot keep up with this lie are given the option of handling their sexual relationships on their own terms instead of forcing us all to abide by rules that run contrary to our very nature without having to deal with the turned up noses of society.-{@msgivings}-
Again, what lie? Monogamy is a choice not a fact or lie. Who and what is stopping you from handling your sexual relationships on your own terms? Who and what Is "forcing you to abide by those rules? Whos very nature are you referring to? If your actions (like polygamy) are not accepted by the society you live in (and probably illegal) you should assimilate or move somewhere where your actions are accepted imo.
I know there are people who are born polygamous in nature- I for one think I am a member of that population.-{@msgivings}-
Earlier you said "man- male and female- were not born with the innate desire to be monogamous." If people can not be born monogamist then how can they be born polygamous?
These people would forever keep struggling to hold a monogamous relationship together because it has been made the standard.-{@msgivings}-
Or maybe, because they are R selected they cant stop screwing everyone and hold down a true relationship. In return they morally justifiy it by telling them self monogamy is just a social construct and it is not real, so the problem isn't that they cant stop fucking other people to save their marriage but its actually societies fault. Then the people they are in relationships with want monogamy and dump their ass when they realize the person fucking around was not worth the time wasted? They are all choices the individuals made. People that want monogamy are choosing not to be with people that cant stay monogamist. It has nothing to do with social constructs.
Just like gays have a right to express love to whom they choose, I am of the opinion that people who do not find monogamy part of an ideal relationship goal, be allowed to set the rules that suites them as long as it’s an agreement between both partners and they both are comfortable and happy in it.-{@msgivings}-
Everyone has the right to express love to whom they choose. I agree fully that if u don't want to be monogamist then your free to do otherwise as long as all partners are comfortable and consent to it. I do not see anyone trying to stop anyone from it unless our talking about marriage license to get tax reductions ect. But that is legal stuff not what you can do in society. Society could not care less.
Nobody should be made to conform to society’s expectations of faithfulness.-{@msgivings}-
Nobody is making you conform to anything. Society does not have expectations of faithfulness and even if it did the only persons expectations you should be caring about are the people in the relationship with you.
I strongly advocate for polyamory .-{@msgivings}-
Well if you live in a first world country it is illegal and people that advocate for it are a super small minority. We are talking less then 1%. Maybe you would be happier in a county where it is not an illegal act and considered moral?
the practice of having more than one sexual partner with the knowledge and consent of all sexual partners.-{@msgivings}-
You don't have to be a polygamist for that. Just look at swinger clubs, porn shoots or even just single life in general.
I believe it is the answer to sexual partners having to deal with cheating and unnecessary heartbreaks that come with discovering ones monogamous relationship has been a sham all along.-{@msgivings}-
The relationship was a sham all along because of the cheating. The heart break came from the lies because the person did not care enough to not cheat. It was a fake monogamous relationship. It is not the fault of monogamy it was the fault of the cheater. The two people in the relationship made it a sham not monogamy.
However, human monogamy will forever remain what it is- a LIE!.-{@msgivings}-
It is not a lie or a fact, it is a description of an action 2 people or creatures take.
When I first started reading your post I thought it was straight out of "a brave new world".
I was wondering at what point does jealousy come into play in this polygamy idea? Unless someone is a cuck they wont stand for it. At what point do we blame the failure of the relationship on the people in it and not on society or (inset reason here)? Thanks a lot for your time and I really look forward to hearing back from you so you can fill me in on the stuff I don't understand.